Diversity in Practice: Denica Gordon-Mandel and Christina Johnson on Talking to Our Kids About Race

In part one of this Diversity in Practice podcast discussion on speaking to your kids about race, MoFo’s Director of Diversity and Inclusion Natalie Kernisant and Director of Attorney Development and Women’s Initiatives Janet Stone Herman are joined by the founders of Raising Compassionate Leaders, Denica Gordon-Mandel and Christina Johnson. The participants address the importance of supporting working parents during such an unprecedented time, and how they can address the issues of race in a way that children can understand.

Transcript

Speaker: Welcome to MoFo Perspectives, a podcast by Morrison & Foerster, where we share the perspectives of our clients, colleagues, subject matter experts, and lawyers.

Natalie Kernisant: Welcome to the Diversity in Practice Podcast, a part of MoFo Perspectives. My name is Natalie Kernisant, and I am the Director of Diversity and Inclusion for Morrison & Foerster. This podcast series is designed to provide a space to discuss a wide variety of issues related to diversity in the law and to introduce you to some of our talented, diverse attorneys, their areas of legal expertise, and the work that they and their MoFo allies do in furtherance of diversity, equity, and inclusion. It’s our hope that by sharing D&I best practices, wherever possible, we can help make the legal industry a more inclusive place for those who are, in the words of MoFo’s former chair Bob Raven, just a little bit different. We have with us today Denica Gordon-Mandel and Christina Johnson, founders of the organization Raising Compassionate Leaders. Also joining me today as co-host through this episode is my colleague and dear friend, Janet Stone Herman. She’s the Director of Attorney Development in women’s initiatives at MoFo. Denica, Christina, Janet, welcome to the podcast.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Hello.

Janet Stone Herman: Hi.

Christina Johnson: Hi, thanks for having us.

Natalie Kernisant: Now, Janet, although you are co-hosting today, I do have a few questions for you that I think will help us ground today’s conversation in the practice of organizational D&I. As you know, the pandemic has profoundly impacted what I call the who, what, when, and how of diversity and inclusion work. Now, what I mean by that is, who and what has taken center stage, so to speak; how quickly we must respond to the needs of our stakeholders; and the medium through which we connect have all changed drastically. For example, at MoFo, we’ve shifted gears to focus more heavily on our working parents. And, I’d love if you could let the audience know a little bit about some of the initiatives the firm has rolled out recently in this space.

Janet Stone Herman: Sure. Well, the pandemic was obviously a once-in-a-hundred-year event, but we immediately recognized that the parents who have lost their childcare and all of their support were going to have lots of struggles maintaining the normal working day from home. I’m the mother of three children, and I worked as an attorney. I could just only imagine what everyone, our staff and our lawyers, were going through. The firm did many, many things. The first thing that we did was, when we went to shelter in place, we created a work-from-home site that had lots of resources on it, but obviously that wasn’t going to be enough. So, we reached out to our working parent affinity groups to find out what they needed. And, what they needed immediately was just strategies on how to incorporate small children all the way up through teenagers in the home while they were trying to get their work done. Through a consultant, we hired a therapist who spoke to our folks. We actually had eight different webinars that targeted parents of children of specific ages, from infants all the way up to kids in college. We had webinars for co-parenting. And the therapist spoke to parents about developmental stages. So what you could expect for example of your toddler during this time. A toddler is not going to sit and do work side by side and not need attention. Level setting for the parents what could be expected and then strategies about how to deal with it. And I will also say, I know, Natalie, you talked about how we addressed the needs of our working parents, but it also became very evident that people were feeling isolated. We also then added sessions with the therapist to address the people who don’t have families who felt isolated by the pandemic. So. that’s the first thing that we did. In addition to those immediate sessions that we had with a therapist, which we did probably within a couple of weeks, we realized that there was a need for sustained support amongst our population. So, we sent out an email to all of our employees and staff, and we created support groups that are led by our employees around different age groups and different living situations so that they could continue to support each other and find ideas to strategize during this time.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah, no, it’s clear that the pandemic created really stressful environment for not only our working parents, but like you said, those living in isolation and a whole host of other people in between. Those caring for elders and what have you. So, the pandemic has definitely added a lot of pressure to our colleagues. Yeah. The range of support that organizations provide working parents and their employees in this moment, I think varies widely. Why do you think it’s important to go beyond providing what most would normally think of as HR benefits to also providing more personal support and counsel in the form of things like webinars, discussion forums, and the support groups that you talked about?

Janet Stone Herman: Well, what I realized was the real need for a sense of community. And, there was an outpouring after we did the webinars and we created the support groups from people who said, “I needed to feel like I was not in this alone.” And so the systems that we created I think really made people feel supported in a way that a mere benefit would not. I also want to add a couple of other things that I didn’t mention initially that we did. First of all, we did those webinars within the U.S. But we also had webinars by a therapist in our China offices. We also had webinars for our Tokyo office, and we offered Japanese translation for our Japanese speaking employees. So, we really were trying to target people where they were at. And, once we got through that initial stage, we looked to do other things. So we targeted actually supporting the kids. We brought in a world renowned storyteller who did a story hour every night for the younger kids. We also created some virtual camps for the middle schoolers to keep them engaged while they were not able to go to summer camp as this thing progressed. And another thing that we did once we got out of shelter in place, and we were able to provide childcare back in the home, as we worked with our childcare provider, to ensure that backup childcare definition was really expanded. And so people now through our resources are able to bring in a trusted person like an aunt or something like that into the home, and then be reimbursed through our system.

Natalie Kernisant: That’s amazing. No, I’m really impressed and proud of MoFo for being creative and how it’s trying to meet the needs of its people in this area. And, I think today’s guests have become an integral part of that effort. As the country begins to grapple with systemic racial injustice, the challenges facing working parents continue to become more and more complex. Not only must working parents simultaneously deal with working full-time in a really demanding profession, they also have to parent and homeschool full-time and many of them are now having conversations they’ve never had to have before on a topic they don’t really feel equipped to take on and that’s race and racism in America. Before we get into all that, I do want to take a minute to sort of properly welcome our guests, Denica and Christina. Would you mind sharing with the audience a little bit about yourselves personally, your background, the organization you guys co-founded.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Absolutely. We’re so happy to be here. We are, Christina and I, two of four sisters, and we have children ranging the stages of development that from infant all the way to 17 years old. So as sisters and parents, we often discuss, especially with everything that’s going on in the world right now, how critical parenting is to the development of our children’s understanding of themselves and then the world around them. I’m a licensed clinical therapist and the director of my practice’s women’s wellness program. And so I see from both a professional side and a personal side, that there is a void in knowing how to discuss hard topics, such as racism, sexism, disability. And, we use in this conversation a lot of isms and, and we talk about these isms as a type of otherness and—which that basically means that there are these people that we often separate from ourselves, and there needs to be more inclusivity in our dialogue with our families.

Christina Johnson: And, I echo Denica’s appreciation for being here. And as she mentioned, we’re two of four sisters and our other two sisters live on the east coast. And although there’s a lot of commonality in how we were raised in our general experiences, we fully understand the different challenges our children will face based on where they live. And so as sisters, we talk often about the importance of identifying our family values and raising our children in ways that are aligned with those family values. And so the general premise of raising compassionate leaders gives parents the resources and tools to help their children develop personal identity, embrace human differences, think critically, and act against injustices towards themselves and others.

Natalie Kernisant: Just to follow up on that a bit. Why do you think raising compassionate leaders is so critically important in this moment?

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Yeah, that’s an amazing question because I—we are at a crossroads, and we really believe that parents have the ability to be agents of change. We can’t wait for our children to enter grade school or college, even, for them to learn how to navigate our diverse world. We have to, as parents, actively become engaged in helping our children. Teaching them that color blindness, or saying that I don’t see difference, that not acknowledging difference, that silence doesn’t create fairness and justice. Fairness and justice requires action. We need to educate ourselves. We need to have conversations. Even if we didn’t create the problem, silence isn’t compassionate.

Christina Johnson: And I would also add, as a foundation, it’s important for us to teach our children to be empathetic, but the next step is to take those feelings and to put them in action. So we emphasize compassion because it is the desire to help. And we want to emphasize that you have to understand others, but make sure that you’re acting in a way that advocates for them as well.

Natalie Kernisant: Absolutely, Christina. And I actually love what you said, Denica, about how silence isn’t compassionate. You both spoke about encouraging the parents you work with to become agents of change and essentially allies to people of color. Now for our listeners ,both Denica and Christina, like me, are black women. Can you talk a little bit about how your identity has affected your work, if at all, and more specifically, how white parents in particular have received your messages, not only about compassion and empathy, but about speaking up and addressing issues of race, head on.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Yes. Responses have ranged. I will definitely say that, but I have to tell you that the vast majority of white parents, they want to be allies. Talking about difference in their world has been construed as this bad thing, that it should be irrelevant or inconsequential, and that talking about differences drew unwanted tension to the color of someone’s skin, their race, or even a disability. But what we were able to get to is that this actually perpetuates the problem, that these perceived differences are what really create the barrier. And what’s left unchallenged is this idea or these concepts of the norm, or which should be powerful or most important. So this idea of sameness, that everyone needs to be the same. They need to look a certain way. They need to act a certain way. They need to be of a certain economic class that sameness is reinforced. And we’re not learning how to think critically about this. This concept of the need to be the same. And that leaves a lot of us feeling unimportant or invisible.

Janet Stone Herman: So Denica and Christina, as I’m a white woman, who wants to be an ally, but recognizes that she still has a lot of learning to do, what’s the first step that you would recommend to help a person, a parent who’s uncomfortable talking with their children about race?

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Yes. Janet, I think that the first step really is getting over the shame and embarrassment. Being ashamed of racism or racist policy doesn’t mean that you as a white person, you’re being shamed. I think one of the things that I believe in that we all have to do, and that is be able to navigate this arc of discomfort. And we as parents, we are modeling that now with everything that’s going on, and then being able to have conversations with our children, we are modeling that through engaging in dialogue with them. And then, I like to say the next step to all of that is being vulnerable because we often times want to have the answer instead of saying, “You know what, I don’t really know,” or “This is really hard for me to even understand.” And that vulnerability requires us all to kind of just have this constant dialogue and willingness. The other part to that willingness and dialogue is being this empathetic listener. And I think that is like, it’s an art, it’s a skill. And when you are listening, truly listening, you’re not trying to defend yourself.

Janet Stone Herman: Danica, I want to pick up on something you said about questioning. Many white parents report being really challenged when their young children express curiosity about difference and ask questions, particularly in front of somebody who has a racial difference or a disability, how do you coach parents to react in that moment?

Denica Gordon-Mandel: It’s being willing to allow your child to ask a question. It’s saying, “Oh, talk to me.” Taking time to address that question or comment, not sidestepping with blanket reassurances. It’s saying, “Hey, let’s talk about this.”

Christina Johnson: What Denica was referring to a little bit earlier was based on the research that we’ve seen is that kids see color as early as three to six months; age six months to a year, they start to pay attention to special characteristics that are inherit in diversity; two to three, they become a lot more vocal, which I think it’s a little bit reflective of your question. And so, your child might say that person has dark skin. And as a parent, you can respond and say, “Yes, he has brown skin.” It’s not the same as yours, but it’s really nice color too. So I think in a delicate way, being able to put it in a child appropriate age. And so from four to six, children begin to be vocal about stereotyping. So they might say that that person has funny looking eyes, or they have –they look dirty. And so you can address the comments calmly, they’re not dirty. Their skin just isn’t like yours. People are of different skin colors. And then from ages seven to eight, children begin to understand that we’re both different and alike in some ways. And so to point out that there might be differences, but there’s commonality such as, yes, they look different from you, but they love playing baseball as well. And so to just show how we’re interconnected and address it calmly allows this conversation to be something that’s normal at home.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Yeah. And to add to that I think that parents need to understand just a few things. Being silent is also sending a message. That message is that differences aren’t okay to talk about. And I like to always say with my colleagues and friends that would you rather your child learn about race or how to talk to someone about their disability at home or outside the home? Cause the people that you run into or they run into may not hold the same values. And are you comfortable with abdicating sort of these conversations or responsibility to someone else. Talking to your children now, and small developmentally appropriate conversations about these isms, you are helping them. You’re setting a foundation. Kids need information in language. So what you’re doing is you’re teaching them how to see beyond differences, such as skin tone and hair color, and to look deeper into common interests, likes and dislikes, values, beliefs, attitudes. I could probably go on and on, but I say two more things. I promise Janet.

Janet Stone Herman: Yeah, of course!

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Just about that is talking about differences, race, ethnic, cultural differences, and other types of diversity, we’re actually making space for our kids to talk about their own difference. And then that opens the door for them to understand and cultivate empathy about someone else’s. And they start to see other people’s viewpoint. And research has shown in this area that—and the research is really geared to for in the classroom. But I like to say we are our children’s first teacher and research is showing that when you open the door and you have these types of conversations, children learn how to advocate for themselves and to speak up because you’re teaching through your own dialogue that, hey, this is what we talk about. So they learn not to be silenced about what’s going on with them, as well as not to be complicit about biases that are—that other people are aiming at others.

Janet Stone Herman: Right. That makes a lot of sense. And picking up on what you said about kind of opening that door. We talked a little bit earlier about how some parents maintained this color blind attitude with their kids. And I think many parents right now are realizing, as you say, that that is not the way to educate our children. So is there a strategy for a parent to pivot if that was how they used to explain it, how do they now transition into a different education for their children?

Denica Gordon-Mandel: RCL provides a framework, like a really simple four-part framework, that allows parents to have this dialogue with their children.

Christina Johnson: The first part of this framework is foundation. So children need to learn how to empathize. So parents can read books with their children to help them understand and to respond to emotions of others. So one of the books that we love and we actually have the author reading for our children’s book club virtually. And so the name of the book is The Name Jar. It’s about a girl who moves the U.S. from Korea and upon entering school, she finds herself struggling with the cultural differences between her and her classmates. The next portion of the fill framework is exploration. And so children need to learn that not everyone sees or interacts in the world the same way, as Denica referenced earlier. And so start by helping your child see that there are similarities and differences. And so one book that we have shared with our children is celebrating differences and different abilities. And so the readers can learn about different people and their abilities. And the author does a really beautiful job noting the differences in people and how it creates for a better society. The next element of the framework is engagement. And so children need to learn that not everyone knows the same things and that we can all learn from each other. And so, one of the books that we have featured also on our site is, Hey Wall, a story about art and community. This is about a young boy who sees a bleak blank wall in his neighborhood. And so he works with his community to build an artistic reflection of diversity. And so the last element of the fill framework is leadership. And so you can learn about activists and others who fought for equality. And the book that we have, which we also have the author doing a virtual book reading for raising compassionate leaders is A Is for Activists, which is an ABC very easy to remember rhyme book about civil rights and race. So it’s a pretty—we have a long list of books that families can then dive into based on where they are on their journey with this.

Janet Stone Herman: That sounds like a really great wealth of educational materials for parents to get started on this super important job that they have in raising compassionate leaders.

Christina Johnson: Absolutely.

Janet Stone Herman: I ask a very, very practical question here. This comes up a lot with people that I talk to. When a child is asked, “Who did you play with on the playground at school today?” Would you want that child to say, “Oh, the kid who is good at it baseball,” or is it okay for him to say, “I played with Johnny and he’s Chinese,” or, “I played with Sarah and she’s the black girl in the class?”

Denica Gordon-Mandel: I love that question. I think that to be able to use the color of someone’s skin as a descriptor, absolutely. We have to give our children permission to do so if your daughter is friends with a little girl on the playground, and you’re asking her to point her out and for her to be able to say, “Oh yeah, it’s the black girl with the little red dress on and she’s got those boots, aren’t they amazing?” You want your—you want to encourage that type of conversation.

Janet Stone Herman: I think we need to talk about this a lot, frankly, because there are so many parents out there, white parents who would dance around that forever. They would say anything but “she has black skin.”

Christina Johnson: Can I add one thing to it? I also think earlier we talked about acknowledging and not being color blind, but then we also place an emphasis on the commonalities. And so I think that it’s okay to be able to describe like, “Hey, I was playing with the little girl over there” and describe her, but I also think we move to a deeper level where we’re sharing, like, “Yeah and we both like to do X, Y, and Z.” So I think it’s also important to share those commonalities, so it doesn’t stop there.

Janet Stone Herman: I have a last question for you, which is how do you help older children in this moment really digest the racial injustices that are happening, that have happened, and that are right with us now.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Teens, older kids, they see everything that’s going on. We can’t shield them. So we have to talk with them about what’s going on and allow time for them to digest what we say. And then they’ll come back to us. Or we need to go back to them. And I would say that it is important to provide a historical context. So you may have to do some homework, and Christina keeps bringing it up. I think that we can’t say it enough. And that is to emphasize our family values. Like this is what we think, and this is how we as a family, what we believe and then support that critical thinking in your child. Nurture questions that allow that child to navigate the information that they’re saying. Let them know it’s okay to ask themselves, “Woo. How does this impact me? This is real. How is this experience shaping my worldview? And how am I viewing myself? Like what, what does this mean for me?” RCL is doing some exciting work with a researcher, and I’ll let Christina speak to this, about teens and media, because they are getting bombarded with a lot of these things that we think, “Oh, well, it’s just, that’s the news. They don’t—they don’t experience this.” They actually do experience a pretty complex world online.

Janet Stone Herman: Ah ha. Definitely.

Christina Johnson: Absolutely. And so, Denica referred to Mimi Ito, who’s a director of the Connected Learning Lab at UC Irvine. And so she researches exactly what Denica is referring to. And so she researches engagement through gaming. And so we’re hosting her. I know, it feels like I’m always giving a plug, but we’re hosting her in September. And so that she can talk about how parents can actively talk to their kids about their online gaming experience. And so she refers to children as experts, and she actually referenced her son and said he’s not very vocal, but when she talks to him about gaming and his experience, he opens up and talks about how he views gaming, some of the challenges that are in there, and then how he also then addresses things that are happening in the world. So it’s been pretty incredible, and so her advice is to let children lead these conversations, let them tell you about what’s happening in their other world, and they want to show off. So she talks about—that definitely bridges the gap for communication because children—it’s their space, and they want to definitely run with that.

Janet Stone Herman: Mhm. So start with a place where they’re open, and then just kind of make it broader. That’s what I’m hearing you say.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Yes, absolutely.

Natalie Kernisant: So finally, I just—I think I can speak on half of both Janet and I, when I say, we’re curious to get your honest feedback on how organizations can better support their employees in this important moment. We—I think Janet and I both feel pretty strongly that our colleagues come to the firm and do amazing work. And they come as full human beings with a whole host of things going on in their personal lives. And to the extent that organizations can become more compassionate in the way that they interact with their employees. I think everyone is better served. The work product that you get from your employees will increase. The commitment and loyalty to the organization will increase. And so, if we close out with just some of your thoughts on how organizations can go about doing this work better and supporting their employees in this moment, we’d love to hear that.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Absolutely. I think that you spoke on it earlier, Natalie and Janet, and that is really working to affirm your employees personal and social identities within MoFo, actively acknowledging their differences and their needs, and creating systems within the company that respect those differences. And you are tending to the needs of women. You’re understanding there’s a diverse set of voices and making sure that your initiatives are—they have a seat at the table and those needs are important and you’re listening. You’re taking the temperature. Like what’s not there for us or for them, for our employees, for all of us. So that everyone, all of their perspective, all of their needs are being heard. I would say that you’re also building a community, which is essential. It takes dialogues like this actively ensuring that you’re considering the experiences of everyone within the organization. And, you’re looking at the organization as a collective group that’s stronger when you support those individual differences. You spoke earlier about considering the needs of mothers and fathers, as they’re trying to parent during a pandemic. And you’re putting systems in place like the camps, the support group, you’re even bridging and connecting the organization internationally. All of that is so important. All of it is so important. And I say last that what that does is you are cultivating leadership within the organization. You are preparing your employees for this global economy that within the company and outside of the company, we have to be more connected. And that type of support you’re really nurturing your employees and being comfortable with uncomfortable conversations, be nurturing their interest in or at least their familiarity with the unfamiliar, and the importance of navigating the needs and interests of others. That takes a lot of self-reflection; conscientious dialogue, like we’re doing right now; and asking a lot of questions. And I appreciate you all offering us this opportunity so that we can have this dialogue. And I love all the questions that you’ve asked us, and I hope that we were helpful.

Natalie Kernisant: Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. I must say it has been a pleasure talking with you today, and we appreciate the great work that you and your organization do in supportive progress on these very important issues. Christina and Denica, thank you for joining us on the podcast.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Absolutely glad to be here.

Christina Johnson: Thank you for having us.

Speaker: Please make sure to subscribe to the MoFo Perspectives podcast, so you don’t miss an episode. If you have any questions about what you heard today, or would like more information on this topic, please visit mofo.com/podcasts. Again, that’s, MoFo, M-O-F-O.com/podcasts.